GBC Proposal (draft)
As I was just pulling up to a clients home my mobile rang, it was my dear friend HH Mahavishnu Swami he was waiting for the announcement of the flight to take him to the Congo were he will be staying for the next month.
Why was he calling me? it was to see if I had received the e-mail of a proposal that we wish to submit to the GBC (a copy of this proposal is included later).
Firstly may I point out that although the name of Progosh Dasa appears it has not been e-mailed to him get for approval; it has however been approved by HH Mahavishnu Swami who thinks also that the approval of Progosh should not be a problem but please bear this in mind when reading.
Secondly some background should be given as to how this came about, during the stay of HH Mahavishnu Swami we got onto the topic of initiation and the problems surrounding initiation. This moved swiftly onto the problems some have of finding a spiritual master or fully understanding the role of the spiritual master. I recalled an incident last year were several young devotees were offered initiation by an individual who at the time was not in the renounced order of life but was contemplating it, worse still he also had some scathing comments about ISKCON and it’s initiating gurus. Ok! So I talked to some trusted senior devotees who flagged it up with the UK management and it was immediately dealt with but the lack of this basic information to new devotees made them some what vulnerable.
We also then went on to discuss how many now rely on the internet as a source of information which when we look at ISKCON proves problematic. I have found that a simple internet search provides lots of information on the sad past and misuse of power within ISKCON. And unless we know of the different spiritual masters names there again we see only negative points and attacks from various sources which leaves a bad impression; if only their was a place on the internet a one stop shop were we could find out the correct information and gain first class advice on initiation, spiritual masters and ISKCON.
HH Mahavishnu talked about his idea of a book with a picture of the current initiating spiritual masters with some information that could be published, this idea was treated with some suspicion, could it be used by those with few disciples to gain more at the expense of other popular ones?; but for me the question was why not have a similar thing on the internet with this added information, it’s more cheaper and more practical and would serve many aspiring devotees not only now but in the future and as a resource if it is used properly would become one of the first sights shown via an internet search; giving a true picture and representation of ISKCON.
Thirdly we discussed the need to help the individual not only find a centre but also make contact with a senior devotee (disciple) of the spiritual master they were interested in, who can take some time to answer questions, direct and sort out the wheat from the chaff. After some time a formal meeting could be arranged and so the relationship can begin this is mentioned as being the inclusion of an e-mail contact. Not that we give freely our spiritual masters e-mails after all we must appreciate how bus they are.
It was felt that I should write a proposal including my thought as to why this makes sense; it has been subsequently been sent for changes and insertion of some points of ISKCON law of which I know nothing about and to format it in a way that is acceptable by the members of the GBC.
I feel that by posting it here on my blog it would firstly not cause any offence and in the hope that those more experienced senior devotees may have some thoughts either negative or positive or to at least stimulate discussion in an area I feel is much neglected.
PROPOSAL NAME: ISKCON GURU WEBSITE
PROPOSED BY: Bhakta Dave (Whales) and HH Mahavishnu Swami
SPONSORED BY (GBC member): Praghosa Prabhu
CONTACTS (removed for this posting on blog)
DATE OF SUBMISSION: 15 November 2008
PRESENTATION OF PROPOSAL:
Whereas:
- The Internet is becoming the main source of information and
communication globally.
- There are devotees in remote areas, areas not frequently visited by
other devotees or spiritual masters, areas with no temples, as well
as interested persons who may search on the Internet to find out
about ISKCON gurus.
- If one presently does a search on the Internet and type in keywords
such as “ISKCON Guru,” a host of negative articles from non-ISKCON
websites appear, describing fall-downs, refuting and holding our
spiritual masters in contempt.
- Some individual ISKCON guru websites exist, but everyone may not be
familiar with the specific names in order to find these.
- Srila Prabhupada encouraged the use of modern communication methods
in Krishna’s service.
- ISKCON needs to have bonafide websites on the Internet to project a
positive and correct image, covering different aspects of the
society.
- According to ISKCON Law * 6.4.3.1 and 7.1 aspirants for initiation
should be left to choose spiritual masters and not be subjected to
any pressures from local authorities or peers to choose a particular
guru even if he is the local one.
- According to ISKCON Law * 6.4.3.1Gurus should not be overtly
canvassing for disciples or their disciples be encouraged by them
to be canvassing for them.
- ISKCON unity is being spoiled by guru’s parties within temples and
zones.
PRESENTATION OF RESOLUTION:
Resolved, That . . .
- An official ISKCON Initiating Guru website on the Internet be
designed and regularly updated.
- The GBC should appoint a GBC member to oversee this project.
- Sponsors and devotees with good IT skills be found to develop the
project.
The following information be made available regarding all ISKCON’s
initiating spiritual masters, following an unbiased standard format minimum
content presentation for each guru ,”big or small”, even if individual
gurus already have their own website:
Name
Brief History
Number of Disciples
Main areas visited
Link to their website (if any)
An email / contact address
Photos
Audio/Video Clips
Excerpts from their writings
With a search facility on the site to include:
View all information on each Guru
Look at those who visit your area
A list of centres and temples
The site should also contain scriptural information on the meaning and role
of a spiritual master and initiation procedures.
It should also give information of any past GBC public statements about or
recommendations for any particular gurus, so that an aspiring seeker can
know the “worst” officially, not through rumours.
It can also have a resume of former fallen spiritual masters whose disciples
may be in good standing in ISKCON.
EXPLANATION:
(1) What prompts you to submit this proposal?
As a preacher I am often asked how to find a spiritual master practically,
and I live in a rural area far from any ISKCON centre. This question is
often raised by people coming in the association of devotees: “I am trying
to choose my ISKCON spiritual master but I do not know who to choose from.
Please help me.”
I tried searching on the Internet myself in order to recommend a particular
site to interested persons, but I was overwhelmed and shocked by the amount
of negative publication. I realize there was an ISKCON Sannyasa website,
but nothing about Initiating Gurus.
(2) Why this proposal is important for the success of ISKCON?
The Internet is the first place many people turn to in order to find
information on any subject, and a positive website presenting ISKCON gurus
may attract and direct interested individuals to ISKCON. The website will
serve as a preaching tool as well as assist many aspiring devotees to get
connected to the bonafide Guru Parampara. It can also serve as a checklist
against unbonafide gurus.
(3) What would be the implications of implementing this proposal?
There are many devotees expert in the IT field who may be eager to assist
with the development and sponsoring of such a website. One/more GBC member,
however, may have to be appointed to oversee the project. Spiritual masters
will have to submit information required of them.
* APPENDIX
RELEVANT RULES FROM THE ISKCON LAWBOOK:
Chapter 6 ISKCON Spiritual Masters
6.4.3
Standards of Conduct for Gurus in ISKCON
6.4.3.1
General standards
6)must not canvass for disciples
7)Must allow all uninitiated devotees full freedom to exercise their right
to accept initiation from the guru of their choice.
8)Must allow uninitiated devotees who have preliminarily taken shelter of
him the full freedom th change their minds on their choice of initiating
guru.
Chapter 7 Discipleship in ISKCON
7.1 Right of devotees to choose their own Guru
7.1.2
All members of ISKCON have the right to accept diksa or siksa from the guru
of their choice provided that the guru is qualified and approved to
initiate, the candidate is eligible to accept initiation,and that all the
relevant procedures set forth in ISKCON Laws have been strictly observed.
7.1.3
Right to Take Association from any approved Guru.
Any uninitiated devotee in ISKCON has the right to read the publications,
hear the recorded talks and bhajans, take darsana of, correspond with,or
associate in various feasible ways with any authorised ISKCON Guru.
November 1st, 2008 at 3:59 am
It is an interesting idea. It looks like you are trying to make life of a disciple much simpler. It also will allow disciples to be more realistic and see their guru as ‘one of many’.
The obvious problems with this resolution are that again the position of a sisksa relationship that naturally leads to diksa is sidelined. It will appear to a new devotee, that he is not allowed to choose the devotee who preaches to him and is acting as a siksha guru to be his initiating guru. That is against the basic sastric requirements.
You are also introducing a category of ‘fallen’ gurus, and that is against the conclusions of the sastra, as the guru can not be fallen, and if some individuals were acting as gurus and are not Vaishnavas anymore, they should not be referred as gurus.
Yet another problem is the ‘online shop’ idea, as if by looking at the picture and by checking the area and number of disciples the individual should get his sraddha together. That is not how it works, the sraddha is a result of the personal association and hearing, not looking at the internet pages.
Even if there is an official page that describes what is proposal, there is no reason to suspect that in the way it will be designed there will be a preference from one guru to another, after all you will need to have a neutral way of listing gurus. If alphabetically, it will call for devotee gurus in the middle of the list to be in disadvantage. If in the order of the time that one has assumed the duties, it will disadvantage the devotees who are just recently taken up this service. And certainly the devotees who are not as ‘good looking’ will be seriously disadvantaged. There also could be a difficulty in listing devotees who are like Jayapataka Maharaja recently, are not in the shape to travel what to speak of initiating new disciples.
The last but not the list problem is the problem of name and fame. True guru may not want to present himself as a guru or to be ‘listed’ as one. One may after all consider it to be an upadi. As Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said: “I am not. Never was. Newer will be a spiritual master.” So if a devotee will rightly and humbly request the right to be removed form the list, while still performing the duties of a guru towards others. the idea will become highly dysfunctional.
November 1st, 2008 at 4:26 am
I think it´s a great idea. It will be very useful for anyone thinking about initiation. It will allow them to make a more informed decision.
As well as containing info about the role of the guru, I think it is important that the website contains a lot of info about the role of the disciple. Sometimes people want to get initiated but don´t know what it really involves on their part.
Thank you for taking the time to write this important proposal. I hope it will be approved.
November 1st, 2008 at 10:24 am
I am aware that their is a number of possible problems with the idea, my discussions with HH Mahavishnu Swami covered most of them.
Including what if individuals wish not to be part of it.
Could it be seen as centralization
Would it favour one over another
What content should or should not be included.
The idea is not to replace anything but to complement, for it to become a tool that can be freely accessed, giving free impartial advice,
I also suggested the use of an advanced search system, I could put in my area say Wales; from here I will be told which spiritual masters visit, the local ISCKON centre and contact.
This person will be responsible for development and guidance and also when the time is right facilitate the initial contact with the Spiritual Master he feels attracted too.
The emphasis is on disciple, guru relationship giving guidance on all aspects of the relationship.
I also would wish to see an facility that if an individual is unsure they could ask via a contact button.
The idea is that if we search the internet this information would be one of the first found and would eventually eclipse all the negative ones focusing on a small part of ISKCON history or suggesting that Srila Prabhupada’s disciples killed him,
It is an idea of a way ISKCON can use modern internet communications in a way that informs, advises and helps potential or aspiring devotees but needs devotees with the vision to open up to the modern world whilst retaining all thats good about the personal touch
I hope more individuals would share their thoughts and suggestions I am very much encouraged
November 3rd, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Dandavats Prabhu
This sounds like a great idea, I live far from a Temple and feel isolated from ISKCON Temple community life. Because of this the internet is a great tool for devotee association. There is the iskconlife.org website where we have a daily morning and evening programme for instance.
I aspire for inniation but know of only a few spiritual masters. I have searched the internet to find out more but found it hard to find positive websites.
This preposal sounds wonderful. I would love to know who all the ISKCON spiritual masters are, a little about them and links to websites for their disciples and followers.
Ys
Jereme
November 3rd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Well the basic principle of this appears to contradict the principle where ISKCON law states that nobody should say who is and who is not this particular person’s choice is where to choose from. What if a person who is his own TP is THE SPIRITUAL master of his, not yet recognized or not yet in the ‘list’, however silly the list will look (with or without pictures). Just think about it, ALL PRABHUPADAS disciples should be encouraged to come forward and act as spiritual masters, that is the duty of GBC; how encouraging it is to have only shortlisted few?
November 4th, 2008 at 1:51 am
Yes we need more spiritual masters and all those who have reached this level of enlightenment should be encouraged to come forward to take the renounced order of life.
We also have to distinguish between our initiating spiritual masters and all those elevated souls who guide advise and help those sincerely searching to move towards spiritual enlightenment.
ISKCON is the best place for this of this I am certain, however what ISKCON is not good at is looking after the needs of individuals living in a rural community, or making sure their profile and information is available via the internet.
We also see how many then leave ISKCON to get initiation elseware for many reasons but one main point is the ability to link in talk to someone and to find out about the initiating guru.
Yes I agree their is a number of issues that could be addressed, but lets make a start open up discussions as to what we feel should be included, what information is needed, why, and then how can we practically solve it!
This is an issue that many devotees think about but were information is not always available, lets make it available along with the information on Guru Disciple relationship, it’s importance along with the commitments that we all have to make
As one senior devotee put it we do not want a dicha-lite situation but focused individuals in search of true spiritual enlightement, and to this aim a web sight with this information would go a long way.
But then only individuals who live in remote areas or away from temples/centres would truly grasp the point being made and the resolution put forward with my hope in filing this identified need within the ISKCON community.
Ys Dave
November 4th, 2008 at 6:33 am
You seems to suggest that you are intending to promote those who are in a renounced order of life in favor of those who are in any different ashram (enlightenment?). I was afraid that that was the idea behind the proposal, ie look sannyasi guru is better then grihastha. As if grihastha or a woman guru is somewhat inferior. Currently in Europe there are very effective gurus who are grihastha, they actually preach and train devotees…
You are again trying to distinguish between siksa (who ‘just’ guide) roles and diksa roles – almost suggesting that those who have diksa role are of a more of a vaishnava or a guru or more elevated. Again our sastra suggests that one should never do that or suggest such a thing.
I agree that more information should be published and devotees should be educated as to the process of approaching a spiritual master(s). That is very good and essential, one should spread the enthusiasm for such relationships. Giving information is good, getting the point is better. And the point is that say Maha Vishnu Swami or Maha Vishnu Goswami, if they are your spiritual master or a diksa guru, they may not be my spiritual master(s). The relationship is individual and just because someone has this relationship with Maha Vishnu Swami or Goswami, it does not make that person on a par with the person that I would develop similar relationship. Thus promoting ‘all’ gurus is as bad as promoting one particular guru. After all, as I said it may well be your own namahatta leader, temple president or a GBC man that you will have guru-disciple relationship. And this relationship will not depend and should not depend on the fact that he is ‘on the list’ or not. It should not depend on his asrama or his age. It depends on you working out your relationship with him and other of your guides, with the transcendental involvement of Krishna in your heart.
Props like “a gurus list” or “a gurus website” are only as good if everyone who is qualified is on it. But it is more likely to see it when only those who are already accepted by others as diksa-gurus will be listed. No reason for that…
Not only it will be male dominated scene, it will also be a sannyasi dominated scene. Do we really want it for the ISKCON future? Is it not a disaster PR. it looks like instead of diksa-lite you are getting into e-diksa… I will be highly skeptical about such idea, and if it goes ahead, it will attract volumes of renewed criticism from ritivik camp as well.
Maybe it is just a few devotee gurus who do not have a website that will be benefiting and this is why they are proposing it?
November 4th, 2008 at 7:13 am
as I have stressed it is not a replacement all all that you have said is relevant and should be taken into account.
It is also not meant to put one over another, I also note that it would appear as very male focused, it is to inform of those sanctioned to initiate and of the process one enters.
That is why in my initial suggestion the individual would be directed to the local temple/centre’s and to a disciple who in all fairness would be ideally in the grihasta ashram.
My own first steps were under the guidance of a very nice women (YES A WOMEN) who gently introduced me to the regulative principles, japa, Srila Prabhupada’s books and then to her own Guru Maharaja and yes I am continuing to aspire for him. I would not have it any other way.
However I am aware of an increased need of young sincere devotees and also of the harm the internet can inflict on those who are fed inaccurate information.
We also need to take into account those who live great distances from a centre or ISKCON community, could we look at ways of reaching out to these individuals.
As stated it is a TOOL, NOT A REPLACEMENT!!
At least lets address the issue of getting the correct information about GURU-DISCIPLE relationship out their for all to see, without the complexaties of personalities act.
Their will always be one camp or another who will find fault or criticisim, we see how Srila Prabhupada was constently hounded by those who could not understand his mission and that included the way he allowed women into positions that were up till then closed.
Lets look at ways we can help all those who wish to become devotees, talk about our ideas and the prose and cons for each. Lets look at modern IT as a tool, here is the information, here is the centres, here is an individual you can contact. LETS MAKE DEVOTEES.
My idea may never be taken up, and it looks like you wish it not, but at least look at ideas and thought.
My desire is that:
1) ISKCON IS BETTER REPRESENTED ON THE INTERNET
2) INDIVIDUALS ARE BETTER INFORMED ABOUT INITIATION AND ITS STEPS
3) THAT GREATER CARE IS TAKEN OF THOSE WHO LIVE IN RURAL COMMUNITIES
4) THAT INITIATION IS NOT TAKEN LIGHTLY
5) THAT GURU?DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIPS CAN BE DEVELOPED NO MATTER WHAT SITUATION YOU FIND YOURSELF IN
6) WE OPEN UP THE WAY TO MAKE MORE GURUS WHO WILL EXPAND SRILA PRABHUPADA’S MISSION.
If I am wrong for desiring all these, then I stand corrected, but I hope that my desire is seen as it is intended and that we can use IT to enthuse and make disciples bring them not only to the point of initiation but beyond with all the support, blood sweat and toil that that entails.
LETS USE IT TO MAKE DISCIPLES, not let IT through falsehood and accusations be used to distroy ISKCON, this is my desire
November 4th, 2008 at 7:37 am
I actually agree with you that the idea of MAKING DEVOTEES is an important one. If such a website is fully integrated and consists predominantly of publications, transcripts and audio material of the whole selection of senior devotees of ISKCON and local preachers, THEN it will not be a shop-for-a-guru site, it will be about receiving instructions and based on that selecting the guide. I would select a sample of the lecture, article and sunday feast transcript of each of the prominent preachers, including diksa gurus, and post it in a proper database format. I would ask each initiating guru to propose one devotee who is not initiating (yet) to be represented. Thus you will have 50% initiating gurus and 50% aspiring gurus. Thus we will not only make DISCIPLES we will also encourage (not discourage) potential gurus. It may also solve the problem of male dominated list. What do you think? As you put it: WE OPEN UP THE WAY TO MAKE MORE GURUS WHO WILL EXPAND SRILA PRABHUPADA’S MISSION.
One should be careful to think that you will be able to develop guru disciple relationship no matter in what situation you are in. The whole notion of the etiquette is critical here. Representing ISKCON better is a great idea. It is well represented I suggest on Wikipedia.org but there are so many ways to improve on it.
November 4th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
So I suggest you make a proposal, put it forward and make it happen, words are good but are your actions equal to that?
As I repeatedly say ISKCON Melborne is the way forward and a shining light and remains the gold standard as far as I can see.
You also appear to think I propose a guru shop, no it’s an info sight if you read my initial proposal it included links to the local ISKCON centre and senior devotee their, I am interested in xxx tell me more. This senior devotee would help develop, educate and inspire the individual concerned and if done properly would attend classes and programs before any introduction takes place. Not I like the sound of this guru please initiate me NOW. This is cheep initiating and we don’t want that.
I know of individual of other mathers initiated after attending only twice or even whilst visiting a friend and expressing an interest over the phone that very day; this is not good for anyone.
So the opening pages will explain all the steps needed and the responsibility of all and Yes thinking about what you say the need for both bitcher and sitcher Guru would help.
My own guru maharaja is not HH Mahavishnu swami he is a dear friend whom I have a lot of contact with and is aware of the needs of those who live in remote areas or away from the main centers we talked in great length about how to give information about how to aspire for initiation, the process, what to look for and how to find an initiating spiritual master which then lead to the proposal with all its faults.
I also have to confess that at times I have met a disciple of other Guru maharajas and had to say I have never heard of them and as my spelling is poor struggle to find information on them.
I am also aware of those who have said this or that guru is one of your lot when in fact they are not connected with ISKCON, so to say to some one you can check here will help.
Yes as I said my proposal is focused on one area, this could be seen as a problem to some,or irrelevent but the need is their how best to fill that need what do you suggest?
Your suggestion is good but I think you will find ISKCON Melbourne already does this, sadly here in the UK and in other parts of the world this fine example is not followed after all I would not have a regular daily class from senior devotees if it wasn’t for their open format.
A majority of ISKCON sights need recomendations before access is given, ok on senior sights this is good but more open source access would be better.
May be you should look at doing this service for all us devotees in rural areas taking lectures from around the world giving us a global view of ISKCON, let me know when you’ve set it up and the web address once you’ve got it up and running.
I look forward to seeing your results, or a copy of a proposal of your ideas
November 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am
If ISKCON Melborn already has it why do you need a proposal? I do not have a separate proposal, I only want to show the implications and possible solution to this one. I wish you good luck with this one.
November 8th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
ISKCON Melbourne will meet all the reqirements you have stated, however their is a gap, and rural communities are poorly served.
I have talked to many new devotees in rural and remote areas who want to know who are authrorised initiating spiritual masters and also find that they are ill informed about visit’s act.
This will enpower, give information whilst making aware of structure and requirements. I just don’t think you have grasped the problems faced by those in rural communities are who cannot get to the main centres nor the damage done by poor information via the internet
November 9th, 2008 at 4:42 am
I am sure Rural Wales will have different requirements to Rural France, Siberia and Rural India. It does appear that you are looking for a global solution that will work… locally. As long as you understand that by this proposal you should not separate gurus from potential gurus and will not rely on photos, but rather on written/spoken material, other items may fall in place. I am well aware of what happens when you google in names of iskcon gurus…:-)
November 9th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I found a good one: http://www.pamho.net/guru.htm
November 13th, 2008 at 5:21 am
here is another one – looks sufficient to me – http://iskcongurus.wordpress.com/